Response to an atheist
Tags: religion, faith, I’m hopelessly unqualified to write about this
I had started leaving a comment in response to Jeff, (aka The Gay Black Jew) here, but instead of leaving a long, post-length comment, I’m making a post out of it (for a change!). Now many of you know, I’m no theologician or even a church-goer, for that matter, but I have an unshakeable faith in God. My religious upbringing was next to non-existent, and I really can’t even say I’m a (fill in denomination here), except I’m Christian and lean strongly toward Catholicism. Right now, that’s not important, except to say that I know there are countless others who could answer more knowledgeably and eloquently. Nevertheless, here it is.
Augusten Burroughs: “God is like Santa Claus for adults.” Is it so hard for conservative republicans to recognize the utter nonsense that is the belief in god? A belief which is shared with terrorists. A belief which divides and makes peace impossible. A belief which has no basis in reality or facts. A belief which could one day destroy the human race. Evolution is a fact but we must choose to evolve…and realize that the bible is no more real than the Koran or the Book of Morons. Happy Holidays.
C’mon, Jeff, you know it’s not just conservatives or Republicans who believe in God. There are plenty of lefties who do, too. I think they would certainly take exception to any assertion to the contrary. Furthermore, believe it or not, there are conservative Republicans who are atheists.
“A belief that is shared with terrorists?” OK, you like sex, don’t you? So do terrorists, I assume (you know, 72 virgins?). Is sex bad? Do you believe in the value of having friends? Terrorists probably do. So is friendship a bad thing? Let’s take it further: You don’t like Christianity, right? That’s a belief which is definitely shared with terrorists. So…?
Did you ever have strong faith yourself? You say it divides and makes peace impossible; what about inner peace? Doesn’t it stand to reason that those with inner peace are less inclined to divisiveness and violence than those without?
Religious belief has always existed. It’s a distinctly human trait, if you want to look at it from a purely rational perspective. Nobody is EVER going to “do away with” religious belief–the Soviets tried, but they couldn’t eliminate it. It’s part of the human spirit. And again, from a purely rational perspective, why should it bother anyone?
To be sure, there are religions that ARE violent and divisive, or at least religious leaders who are. Christianity isn’t violent, but there have been times during history when that wasn’t so apparent. And it should go without saying, look at Islam. There are cults of evil as well, and they’re “religions,” at least to their adherents. But for the most part, even if you DON’T believe in any higher power, religion serves mankind well. Considering humans have always held some religious belief and we haven’t destroyed the human race yet, I’d say it’s not religious faith that will destroy us. At the risk of sounding anti-science (I’m definitely not), it’s more likely our own scientific progress combined with amoral, hateful human minds that’ll do it. (See also: Nazis.)
Now, I don’t subscribe to the belief that religion is the only thing that makes people compelled to good behavior (although it’s certainly true for some), but it does can* give people inner peace, serenity, enlightenment, and often things like creativity and clarity in thinking. Nobody can be against that, can they? I don’t think atheists are by default amoral or angry at all, but a belief in God/YHWH/Buddha/the gods/whatever does help a lot of people–in fact, most of mankind throughout human history. To “kill” God would be to kill mankind.
The analogy of God being “Santa Claus for adults” is false and ignores the reality of humanity. It’s a humorous euphemism for the religiously (!) atheist, but it’s risibly false. And yes, I do mean religiously atheist, because of the evangelist style of attempting to “convert” believers to atheism. It’s no less offensive, no less divisive, than an evangelist trying to convert you by denigrating your belief that no higher power exists. HUMANS are divisive, not religion. You know the line, “guns don’t kill people, people kill people”–it’s the same thing, amplified. It’s not religion that causes wars or discord, it’s fallible humans that do it. The Soviet Union, to use them as just one example once again, was officially atheist and they certainly had no shortage of violence, discord, or war. Another example (again): Nazi human experimentation, done in the name of “science.” Religion is simply illegitimately used by some as a call to arms. Not always, of course, but it is done. (Again, the argument can obviously be made that some religions do advocate aggression.) But you simply can’t realistically or logically argue that the teachings of Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism, Hinduism, or many others advocate violence, divisiveness, or aggression. They simply don’t.
So why, when I can see value in most religions, do I “pick” Christianity? For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. (John 3:16) Easy. Or not easy. How do you explain faith? I suppose I could put it in terms like this: I’ve never seen a single atom, but I know they exist. Maybe that’s not a good way of explaining it. Faith itself is the ultimate Zen koan: I believe because I know. I have faith because I am. I don’t need to say to an atheist, “prove there is no God,” because that’s silly and unprovable. I can’t “prove” God’s existence, either. Then again, I don’t have to. I have faith. :wink:
P.S. Happy Holidays to you too, Jeff.
UPDATE:
* - See comments. “Can” is what I meant, or at least “does give a lot of people.” I didn’t mean “does give all people…”
Also: I. Shawn McElhinney emails:
It did not seem to me that you challenged the atheist while trying to defend yourself from his assertions. The following threads from my weblog may be of assistance in this area:
Musings on Atheism (circa August 15, 2003)
Points to Ponder on Atheism By Dr. Art Sippo (circa August 14, 2003)
Ultimately, atheism is arbitrary as both Dr. Sippo and I note in various ways. Because to be an atheist is to have an operative presupposition in your thinking that something was created out of nothing. I remember really angering atheists at the infidels board about six to seven years ago with pointing that out in various ways to a whole host of their presumed “arguments against God’s existence.” The beauty of it is that no matter how they slice it, that is what all of their attempts inexorably boil down to. Hope that helps.
Bingo. I had actually emailed him with a “help?!” after writing this post, because I had actually seen those pieces before, and as I said, he’s one of those people who can debate these issues far more thoroughly and knowledgably than I can. I would ask, encourage, Jeff and others to read those two pieces, at minimum. I assure you, you will have better answers there at his blog (Rerum Novarum) than I could ever supply. And in case you’re thinking you’ll encounter a fire-and-brimstone evangelist there, you’re wrong. I challenge you to read this extraordinarily rational, intellectual man’s work. (Isn’t that what an atheist would prefer hearing? Logic and reason?)
sierrahome says:
God, maker of Heaven and Earth is (I believe) not only quite real but wants us to know He loves us. Having spent many years trying to run away from God after a personal Mountaintop Experience at a young age I can reflect back and see His kind hand and his forgiveness for which I am not at all worthy. (My ability to swear like blue smoke is legendary.) He has a plan for each of us and his plan for you is different than his plan for me but for all of us He can make us a better person simply by honoring Him through His Son Jesus (begotten not made) than we could ever, in thousands of years make of ourselves. I believe religion is the living memory of dead men but faith and trust in the Lord is a living daily exercise. There is plenty of evil in this world and plenty of evil in me but through a daily exercise of faith answering to the better angels of our nature is possible. Had I not allowed the Lord into my heart I would be long since be dead but I see His gifts everyday in my wife’s eyes and His answer to prayer for my children and home.
That’s all Just sayin’…not pointing.
Blogrolling 2006-12-10 | Basil's Blog says:
[...] Beth (MY Vast Right Wing Conspiracy) responds to an athiest. [...]
JT White says:
For not being an expert you did well explaining your belief and faith. I have a atheist friend who always argues with me that I’m to intelligent to believe in God. He says he will only believe when God stands before him and perform miracles. My response is to him is simply that would remove the need for the faith. I don’t think we were ever meant to have that kind of proof in God’s existance (however I do believe we have the proof embedded in our souls). I also tell him it’s not the religion but the relationship that matters. Again great job explaining your point of view without demeaning his.
BTW we libertarians can also believe or be atheists.
Jeff says:
You’re right, the majority of both liberals and conservatives are believers. But SOCIAL conservatives are almost by definition 100% believers. Any “conservative atheist republicans” are fiscal conservatives. And considering that 52% of Americans would never vote for a well-qualified atheist for president, virtually all politicians must publicly profess to believe in god or they commit political suicide.
Comparing belief in god to sex and friendship just doesn’t work. Sex and friends are real and indisputable. If there truly is a god, he’s a total asshole for letting billions of people suffer throughout history due to conflicting beliefs. All-knowing and all-powerful…but for the last 2,006 years he’s been stuck in a Verizon commercial, i.e., “Can you hear me now?” Waiting for his only cellphone (Jesus) to fall from Heaven so that He has someone to talk to who can send all non-Christians to an eternity in hell fire while whisking believers up to a magical fairyland hidden in the sky. Nothing could be more violent, BTW.
How can you blindly trust words written over 2,000 years ago…when few could read, fewer had access to books and nobody wiped their ass? The largely ignorant people who rallied behind Jesus lived relatively miserable lives and were MUCH more susceptible to believing comforting delusions than, say, David Koresh’s followers.
The Old Test., which Christ endorses in the New Test., calls for gays to be “put to death,” endorses slavery outright (which allowed slavery to be accepted in America…paving the way for racial tensions that may never go away) and recommends that if a man beats a pregnant woman and the fetus dies, HE SHOULD JUST PAY A FINE! How do you feel about that as a pro-lifer?
The New Test. is responsible for plenty of anti-Semitism (Hello Mel) simply by teaching that Jews not only killed but sadistically tortured Jesus Christ, the savior for all Christians. So, anti-gay, anti-black and anti-Jew. DIVISIVE! And very bad news for a gay black Jew.
The bible has not only incited plenty of violence, it is riddled with absurdities, contradictions and nonsense. And if it does contain the divine words of God, then why did God make so many men and women who were/are better writers? Read the damn thing, parts are impressive but as a whole it kinda sucks.
It doesn’t really bother me when people chose to worship Jesus. It bothers me when powerful people desire to make rules based on Jesus and the bible that we all have to follow. George W. Bush believes that God wanted him to be president…and believes he talks to God. Many psychiatrists would prescribe the president anti-psychotic medication for these beliefs.
And George H.W. Bush, who was less overtly religious as pres. than his intellectually-challenged son, said this in 1988: “I don’t know that atheists should be regarded as citizens, nor should they be regarded as patriotic. This is one nation under God.” That stokes my fire. Now, a quote from a 2001 W.Post Magazine story on Tom Delay, who, as we both know, was the most powerful man in Congress for many years:
“’…As we leave First Baptist, I ask DeLay about the many citizens who would be quite uncomfortable with the idea that he would mold the government in the belief that his religion – fundamentalist Christianity – had the only answers to society’s problems. …DeLay looks me squarely in the eye and shakes his head sadly. ‘When faced with the truth, the truth hurts. It is human nature not to face that . . . People hate the messenger. That’s why they killed Christ.’”
That stokes my fire even more, but of course Delay is gone, thank sense. He should go back to killing bugs. Finally, as an early Xmas present, I leave you w/ a 10-minute video to heal what I see as your delusion. It’s from WhyWontGodHealAmputees.com:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HVuw1wEuaAQ
It’ll make you feel warm and fuzzy inside!
Philosopher says:
Wow, Beth. For someone who professes “My religious upbringing was next to non-existent, and I really can’t even say I’m a (fill in denomination here), except I’m Christian and lean strongly toward Catholicism”, you’ve certainly got a good grip on the concepts. And I also subscribe that it’s not the religion that’s bad, it’s what people have done to that religion to make it bad. Those who pervert the word of their god to whatever their own ends are, they are the ones who give all religions a bad name.
By the way, Merry Christmas!
Chris says:
Beth,
That was great. I really appreciate people who can put your faith into words like that. God Bless You and Merry Christmas.
Oh, and Jeff, God and Santa Bless you too! :)
scarshapedstar says:
Now, I don’t subscribe to the belief that religion is the only thing that makes people compelled to good behavior (although it’s certainly true for some), but it
doescan give people inner peace, serenity, enlightenment, and often things like creativity and clarity in thinking. Nobody can be against that, can they?Fixed it for you. That’s really the crux of the matter, isn’t it? Here you’re basically stating that all religions are created equal and that’s simply BS. For starters, it conflicts more than a little bit with whatever views you have in Islam, I’d imagine. But anyone who’s watched Jesus Camp or read a Jack Chick tract knows, religion can drive people to abject lunacy, or at the very least, delusional thinking - and there is no other word to describe the Creationist who insists that the Grand Canyon was created by Noah shutting the door on the Ark in 4,000 BC. And these people can no longer be dismissed as outliers. Our country has fallen behind predominantly Muslim nations like Turkey in the percentage of citizens who believe in basic scientific facts like evolution. And, again, Jesus Camp illustrates that this is just the tip of the iceberg. Listen to the way the people speak joyously about indoctrinating children, and look at the fancy multimedia presentations dismissing evolution and global warming, and it’s pretty clear that this is a well-funded campaign to outright deny scientific reality the likes of which hasn’t been seen in Western civilization since Galileo.
We have seen the fanatics and they are us.
Beth says:
Yes, it’s more accurate to say “can” rather than “does.” I guess I wrote “does” in the same context that I don’t believe religion MAKES people moral, but it “can.” And I certainly don’t believe all religions are created equal. Even if you leave Islam out, there are countless examples (Scientology, anyone?).
I absolutely do not believe that the fanatics “are us.” To be sure, there are plenty, but in no way do I believe that Jesus Camp or creationist beliefs are going to become mainstream or even much more than media fodder, any more than the Westboro Baptist “Church” will. (Not that I equate them, but you get the idea.) Furthermore, there are plenty of people who believe in Creation quite literally (seven days, etc.), but they aren’t making it a campaign. They don’t bother me at all. But just like any cause, there’s always the very small but very vocal contingent that makes news, regardless of the fact that most people don’t agree with them. (Cindy Sheehan comes immediately to mind.) I don’t think there’s much chance of Jesus Camp or Creationism in schools, though, any more than there’s a chance that wackos like Fred Phelps will become “mainstream.” There’s always room for all schools of thought, but it doesn’t mean we have to accept them. I think saying “the fanatics are us” is really a huge overstatement. Maybe it appears that way because of the overrepresentation on teh internets and in media stories, but as someone who lives in the so-called “Bible Belt,” I just don’t see it.
The Anchoress » 48 oz of coffee is maybe 16 too much says:
[...] Meanwhile, Beth does a very good job of talking to an atheist about faith [...]
joe cioffi says:
i’ve always felt the religion of aethism (and make no mistake…it is a religion) is intellectually dishonest.. It states as its dogma that there is no god. In other words it states as fact something that cannot be proven nor disproven. And until you can do that dogma does not become knowledge. I can not prove there is a God or a higher power if you prefer…but you cannot disprove it either.
At least the agnostic position is more honest in that it acknowleges the possibility of something that may or may not be known.Frankly being an aethiest is so 90s!
Dan says:
Jeff says:
This is an argument regarding fact. He is saying it is irrational to believe in God (his argument that it is shared with terrorists is ridiculous. The irrational belief is shared, to be true, but it’s a completely useless point to make. Buddhists also share an irrational belief).
In a completely detached sense, this does make sense. However, by its very nature, religion is divisive. Christianity teaches that it is the only way that one can get to Heaven. Islam teaches that it is the only way that one can get to heaven. Buddhism claims to have the methodology for reincarnation into Nirvana, etc. Violence is a completely different ballfield. It all depends on interpretation. If you read the Qur’an, you can easily justify a jihad against the Western world at large, wantonly killing every non-Muslim. You can just as easily (indeed, it’s probably even easier) make an argument that violence is only to be used in protection of Islam (a defensive jihad). Inherently, there is nothing about the “inner peace” that may come with religion that prevents divisiveness or violence.
Science has existed for quite some time, has it not? It has yet to succeed in annihilating the human race. But this is really a spurious argument. Just because something hasn’t happened yet doesn’t mean it never will. And do you really want to get in a “let’s point out examples of evil” contest? The Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, the list is long for both sides.
Just because something helps does not mean it is true. The Santa Claus argument is at the root here. Children are taught to believe in Santa Claus because it captures their innocence, childlike sense of wonder, and undoubtedly the fear factor that if you are naughty, you won’t get any presents. Therefore, we can assume that some good behavior (at Christmastime at least) is a direct result of belief in Santa. Does that make Santa real? The argument I have against Christianity is not that it does not have good teachings, not that it creates bad people; it is illogical. It requires one to suspend logic, and believe in something without evidence for doing so. This allows people to suspend logic in other areas, simply because they “believe that it is right.” I don’t mind someone who’s opinion is contrary to mine, provided they have a logical reason for that opinion: I have been persuaded by facts and evidence before. However, if you hold a contrary opinion for no other reason than “because it’s what I believe,” then you have killed mankind. The nature of mankind is not goodness or morals – it’s rationality and cognition.
As for your continual use of Nazism and the Soviet Union as examples – the Soviet Union’s problems (shortages, wars, discord) were not CAUSED by atheism. It wasn’t people arguing over disbelief in God, but rather the political system (Communism), among others. And come to think of it, why do you continually use the Nazis as an example? They weren’t done for science, they were done for military and flat-out torture purposes.
Beth says:
Dan, I didn’t SAY anything was CAUSED by atheism; I used them as examples in recent history of horrors that had nothing whatsoever to do with religion, since so many devout atheists claim religion causes everything wrong in the world.
I guess you may have just glossed over the part immediately preceding, though.
Sorry, yer not gonna convert me either. I’ve heard ALL the arguments, but they’re empty. There IS no “argument” against faith, unless your faith is weak or ambivalent, anyway. One can throw every single argument in “the book” (of atheism)–whether simplistic or extremely complex, and everything in between–and it’s like trying to argue 2+2=4 when the question was “how’s the weather?” But here’s a tip, once again: denigrating another’s faith is a sure-fire way of making them not care about yours. The big mistake of Atheism is that the arguments are all the same: the faithful are illogical, childlike, ignorant (love that one), irrational, delusional. This is, of course, because there are no selling points on the behalf of Atheism except to say “I’m not one of those ignint people” (which is a pretty weak selling point, because God’s “opinion” is far more important to the faithful).
So, I’m ignorant, illogical, childlike, irrational, delusional to the followers of Atheism (although not just regular “who cares” atheists, like my first husband was/is). Like I care? I honestly couldn’t be less concerned with the opinions that the Religiously Atheist have about me. Seriously.
My questions to you:
1) Why is it so important to Atheists (vs. atheists) that religion be denounced?
2) Do you actually think you will ever eliminate religious belief? And do you actually believe that if there were no religion, we’d have no wars? (I remind you of Communism and the Nazis–again, because it’s recent history that everyone knows and because religion had nothing to do with it.)
Beth says:
Also:
No, because it’s pointless, although the Crusades, the Inquisition, and the current global jihad seem to be main points made by Atheists. I maintain that religion or the lack thereof is not the cause of these “examples of evil,” but that humans, fallible as we are, are the cause. We will ALWAYS have war and violence as long as humans exist. We always have, as science tells us (via archaeology). And as we all know, violence and war certainly pre-dates Christianity (which is usually The Supreme Evil to most Atheists).
I have said that I don’t believe all religions are good or legitimate, based on their basic tenets, if nothing else. But then nor are all secular philosophies or beliefs, either.
Finally, you are correct saying that science hasn’t annihilated us yet, obviously. My point–as I said in the post–is that if you want to put up science vs. religion (I don’t, personally, because I’m all for scientific progress and knowledge), it’s more likely that science will provide the means with which we will destroy ourselves. That said, it’s irrelevant, by my own logic: it’s the “evil” of man that will pull the trigger, and religion or the lack thereof doesn’t matter. Ahmadinejad and the mullahs are religious madmen (using a religion with which I disagree vehemently, but nevertheless, religion), but Harry Truman wasn’t trying to spread Christianity when Nagasaki and Hiroshima were nuked. The commies weren’t trying to spread religion (unless you count communism as a “religion”). You didn’t understand what I was saying about Nazis, either: Hitler didn’t kill because of science, but certainly the human experimentation done at Auschwitz, Dachau, etc. were absolutely done for “science.” Mad science, evil science, yes, but still: science. Also look at eugenics, which I’m sure you don’t support, either. But do I blame science? No, I blame unethical, amoral and/or evil human beings.
joe cioffi says:
My questions to you:
1) Why is it so important to Atheists (vs. atheists) that religion be denounced?
Beth…it is important that relegion be denounced precisely because to accept the religion of atheism, which is ultimately the belief (faith) that there is no god requires that one renounce all other faiths (the belief in god).
I often find it really boils down to how one views life and the life experience. For every argument of what the bible is…i can pull up the exact opposite. We can go at this all day long and get nowhere. To me it boils down to the belief in a higher power which aethists find absurd…verses the idea that we are here because of a random collision of molecules…which mathematicians find equally absurd.
For the record…i’m with the mathematician.
Gayle Miller says:
Wow! Found you via the Anchoress and I must say, you blow me away, as do the others to whom you link. You just acquired a constant and faithful reader!
Dave says:
I am always amazed when atheists decry the intelligence of believers - there are far too many examples to the contrary for anyone who claims to believe in rationality to believe this. I like to mention that Albert Einstein believed in God, and ask the atheist who thinks he is smarter than Einstein for some sort of evidence of that intelligence (i.e. important theories discovered, etc.) “God does not play dice with the universe - he is subtle but not malicious.”
More about the religion of Atheism | MY Vast Right Wing Conspiracy says:
[...] Go read the whole thing. But I must warn you Atheists: do not call this man stupid, or you’ll be exposed as ignorant fools. (I will stress once again that I make a distinction between atheists and “Atheists”–the uppercase used for those “evangelists” of the religion of Atheism.) By the way, don’t forget Brainhell is up for Best Medical/Health Issues blog–please give him your votes. God knows he’s earned it! [Previous post: Response to an Atheist] [...]
I. Shawn McElhinney says:
Thanks for the kind words Beth. One thing though: the last name is McElhinney. Until the tabasco people cut me in on their vast empire, I will not acknowledge any relation to them if there is one to acknowledge (which there may be but I doubt it).
Beth says:
Sorry! I know better, but It’s a Deep South habit, I guess. :???:
D.C. says:
It occurs to me:
1. EVERYONE believes in and worships someone/something
as god/God. For some, god is greeted by looking in the
mirror.
2. The key question is “What is the nature, character, and
spirit of the god/God you worship?” THAT determines
who or what you are becoming.